Talk:Human Clerics & Robed Cultists

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In the Clerics_w._Maces section we have 4b Bearded Cleric Attacking with Mace which is not correct. That's an axe he's carrying so probably not a cleric candidate in the traditional D&D sense. Also that figure has a different descriptive text now, and it was wrongly identified as M1004b when it is the resculpted version of this: C1502e. I've fixed this in the Metal Magic pages today. Cattwister 11:28, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree that it is an axe... and I'm moving it to the axe section, but instead of changing the descriptor at this time, I've put all four images up there for comparison (first two are MM, second two Mega): Human_Clerics_&_Robed_Cultists#Clerics_w._Axes. Here's where the catalog pics come in handy. Let's call these four pics 1,2,3,4 for convenience. Just so you and I agree, here's what I see: 1 was the original, it was reserviced with the title 2 (may have been resculpted here), but the pic of 2 seems to be part of the Barbarian line still - and belongs in your pics for that group here. 3 is a resculpt, but whether or not it was redone by JO or by Mega is debatable. 4 is Mega's greyscale of 3, which should stand as the resculpt greyscale image. So far, we haven't got a good greyscale image of 1. I'm thinking the product code and descriptor got messed up with a translation, and omission of the M100 numbers (perhaps when it was coded to the grouping the coder wanted to keep it short). It probably got in this Topical Gallery by me trusting the word descriptor when I copied code from the MM page it originally came from. I didn't do the coding on this one, since my Metal Magic code comes from the two catalogs available from dndlead.com.
For figure M1004b... the "Bearded" name is my fault: [1] Viruz uploaded the main image under the "_4b" filename. He gave all the M1004 set the same filename format: "_4x" (where x is a-e). Combine this with [a] the fact that Hobby Products used to refer to their figures as "#x" (and inscribed these numbers on the bases in a *few* cases), [b] this format was not in any Hobby Products catalog and [c] Tabletop Games listed the Metal Magic figures under this early coding scheme and produced a catalog that listed code 4b as "Bearded Cleric Attacking w. Mace"... and we can see what happened: the figure's image was named "4b" and the TTG list was used to get the "English" name for figure 4b. I'm undoubtedly the one who changed the 4b name to "Bearded Cleric" from what it should be, which is "Oriental Barbarian" (an official English name for C1502e) or "Barbarian w. Axe & Dagger" (the literal English translation for M1004b). And [2] the catalog picture in both the Black catalog (which I own) and the picture in the 1987 catalog (a much clearer picture than the uploaded catalog picture on the wiki) both *very clearly* show a textured base and not the circular disc base of later models (C1502e included). These smooth bases didn't come into use until 1987 for newer models - the M1004 set pre-dates this by a 1-3 years. The figure that Viruz uploaded as "_4b" is *not* the M1004b "Barbarian w. Axe & Dagger". Mega Miniatures can't be involved in this. This resculpt was done pre- Johnny Lauck. And, for sure, I'm on the look out for an early version of this mini to compare with but based on two catalog images of the 'M' series figure versus the one catalog image of the 'C' series figure (plus the Turnkey physical version that I own)... the C1502e figure is a rescult of the M1004b figure - as are *all* the figures in C1501, C1502 and some of C1504. And yes, you're right to want originals and resculpts side-by-side. --Cattwister 00:28, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
As for the descriptive text... it should be the original text from JO (from the M100 Barbarians group) as primary... and until we determine where the resculpt happened, (or did it just get a new C1502e product code?), we can't definitively label "original" and "resculpt" in the code. If Mega resculpted this, do we have Lauck's product code for that - it should go on the pic page as per your new format? I would like to compare the two sculpts, to make sure we're labelling them properly and not mixing them up - they should be listed in the galleries side by side. Until we sort this out (or until you persuade me!) I'd like to leave the four pics in here, so please don't delete. For now, I'm listing 1 as original, 2 as resculpt?, and 3 and 4 as definite resculpt. Until we get a pic for 1, we won't know if 2 is also an original.
These C150x sets were discovered by Thegrouch who uploaded this image from an old RPG mag. If you take a look at it, this is where the "Fat Djinn" and "Slim Djinn" names come from that we were discussing the other day. And all the English names for these miniatures in the C150x sets came initialy from this advert. Later I obtained a physical copy of the 1994 catalog which confirmed all those names in English / German / French - including "Fat djinn" and "Slim djinn" (sigh). FYI: these sets were originally on a page enitled "Fantasy Classics (Metal Magic)" which was moved to "C1501 Paladins (Metal Magic)" when I split all the sets up onto their individual pages.--Cattwister 00:28, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
I don't restrict myself to playing D&D (and in fact I prefer other systems), so clerics with axes are just fine with me - hence why the clerics in here have listings for other weapons as well. Also, Admin's preference in here is for greyscale pics, so the greyscale pic should be in the galleries and the color versions as Alts, unless there is no good greyscale image available. Have you deleted the original page this fig was galleried on?--Mysticat 20:11, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
Clerics - Yeah, D&D doesn't define what a Cleric is but, to my eyes, if you are not using that as a criteria then M1004b doesn't look much like a cleric to me. Is there something historical that you are basing this on? (I'm curious) --Cattwister 00:28, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
The old 'C' Series mega-page was split up into Fantasy - Part 1 (Metal Magic), Fantasy - Part 2 (Metal Magic), Fantasy - Part 3 (Metal Magic), and Fantasy - Part 4 (Metal Magic) - all of which were moved again but still exist, histories intact.... however... The 'M' Series was originally on a page called Original Fantasy Line which moved to Fantasy (1980s) (Metal Magic) but was then deleted - not by me, but undoubtedly at my request. So we have lost the history of this and your gallery scan was done on these earlier pages. When this happened it taught me that it was important to 'move' a page rather than just split all the data off of it and delete it. Since the latest version of the sets on that page were "saved" when I moved them onto their own pages - we have the most up-to-date information at the time but we have lost the meta-data and revision history for discussions like the one we are having here. The wiki still has the old Talk page - Talk:Fantasy (1980s) (Metal Magic). That Talk page has some relevant comments. --Cattwister 00:28, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
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